Talk:Death Sentence: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 19:58, 12 December 2012

1911 or 1991?

Stop changing this back to a straight 1911, it's a 1991, the slide markings and gun build show that.

No, your wrong there, is no such thing as a 1991, a 1911 made in 1991 is still a 1911.

You're wrong. There are different models of the 1911, so there are different names for those models. You can't just call them all one name because they originated from that one model.

Colt made the M1991A1 picking up from the serial number of the last 1911s they had made. The gun Kevin Bacon uses is very clearly a M-1991A1. It is very obvious in the scene in the shed. The 1991 grips were black polymer with the Colt logo in the middle. Check it and see.

Exactly! Thank You!

You are still wrong, I realize that there are many models of 1911. But they are still 1911's weather Colt, Springfield, or even Sig makes them. Colt had several models but NONE OF THEM were ever called "1991" BOO YAH!

You are ALL wrong. First, Colt DID make a M1991A1, and it had black RUBBER grips with the Colt logo in the center, not plastic polymer. Second, Several 1911 variants have black grips, even if only ones made by Colt have the Colt logo, that black grip was not exclusive to the 1991. Third and most important, This is NOT a M1991A1. you can see that if you pause it almost anytime when the thug has it on the garage roof scene, as well as in the final gunfight right after Kevin Bacon kills the black dude. Yes boys, this was a movie set, not real life, so they recycle props. It's the same gun both times. Both times you get a good look at the slide and it DOES NOT read M1991A1. Lets give this one a rest

Colt 1991 pistol: http://www.proguns.com/colt-1991series.asp

Can we have some screencaps of this? This discussion is pretty interesting to me.

The rollmarks on the 1991A1 Colt's are very large, on the screencaps I took I didn't see it. So I went with 1911. Most likely some off brand. --Predator20 02:57, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

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Bones sets down the M1991A1. alongside the Colt Python

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1911

That's nice, but simply saying it's a 1991 and showing a sideshot of it does not prove your point. I see no markings that indicate that it's a 1991, and the fact that it has black rubber grips does not mean that it's a 1991, as many other 1911 variants come with nearly identical grips, and besides, you can easily add different grips to almost any 1911. Therefore, I'm changing it back, and you can bitch about it if you want, but until you provide actual evidence that it's a 1991, I'll make sure it stays a 1911 on the page, as that's much more likely the case. Acora 14:31, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Well I reverted your edits Acora, when I screencapped it I changed it from a M1991A1 to M1911A1, another user changed it back it to a 1991. After looking at M1991A1 pics more closely, I have to agree. While there is never a good clear view of the rollmarks. It resembles the 1991 series more than any of the others. --Predator20 17:23, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

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Colt M1991A1

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Colt M1991A1

Predator, it resembles a blued 1911A1 with black grips that bear the Colt logo. That, quite honestly, could be nearly any 1911 variant, so unless we see a good shot of the rollmarks, we can't make a conclusive judgement. Seeing as other then possibly this case, I haven't seen any 1991A1's in any film whatsoever, it's much more likely a standard 1911. Besides, the rollmarks should be fairly easy to see, if they were there, and I don't see anything on our screenshots. Therefore, I'm changing it back. Acora 11:53, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

You haven't seen it listed in any in film, because most likely there haven't been any good close ups to say it was. More often than not, when we see a 1911 in film. Chances are there is never any good identifying marks of the make. So we just call it a M1911A1, when it could be a Series 70 or 80 Colt, Springfield whatever. Take Heaven's Prisoners. If there wasn't this one close up of the gun, I would have went about calling it a M1911A1 when it's actually a Colt MK IV Series 80. Which is why I added this note in the M1911A1 section. :

Note many in the list below could actually be Colt Mark IV Series 70/80 Government Models, Springfield Armory, or another manufacturer. Instead of a former military issued M1911A1, unless its a war film. Since the markings of the gun aren't always clear, M1911A1 is a catch-all term. Being most 1911 manufacturers pistols are based off the M1911A1 platform.

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Heaven's Prisoners. Note Colt MK IV Series 80 on the slide.

I reverted you edits again and locked the page. The rollmarks may not clearly show Colt M1991A1 it's rollmark style says it does. While it's just a screencap, it also has the plastic looking trigger found on them also. Lastly the grips found on them (M1991A1) and some other Series 80 Colts. While they could be changed, why would they do that? I tell you one thing else it's not an actual M1911A1. --Predator20 15:09, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

So, what you're saying is, if there's no actual proof that it's a certain variation of a firearm, but I think it is, I should just change it and have the page locked? Yes, that's a brilliant way to actually determine what kind of firearm it is. Point being, we cannot determine whether it's actually a 1991 or not, and therefore, it's stupid to claim that it is one. There is no concrete evidence to it being one, and while you claim the rollmark style proves that it's a 1991, I strongly disagree. I cannot even see any rollmarks on the gun, just a large patch of discoloration where almost any rollmarks could fit. But obviously, you're going to keep it as a 1991, even though you haven't proven that it is such. Fine. Acora 16:36, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

You're going to argue these shots aren't clear enough, but I'm going to post them anyway. Looks to me like it says Series 80 below the ejection port. I'm not sure of any other makers that mark their 1911s there. "No clear evidence?" The rollmark style says it is, the grips, the slightly taller sights from the GI style, flat mainspring vs the arched seen on the GI models, parkerized finish. What more do you want? --Predator20 18:47, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

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looks like Series 80 to me.

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image brightened

Pump shotgun help

I though this was a Winchester 1200, but it has a rounded bolt. The receiver is closest to a Stevens 67, but the magazine tube end isn't the same. I got tired of looking. --Predator20 02:57, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

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It's entirely possible this is a Smith & Wesson 3000 model shotgun. It's visually similar to the Remington 870 with the rounded bolt and the slide near the end of the magazine tube, but with enough differences to make it stand out.

Possible misquote?

There is a screencapped picture of Bones holding the Desert Eagle. Underneath it says: "...half cannon." I could've sworn he said "Hand cannon." That would make more sense IMO.

The way John Goodman ("Fred Flintstone" in another movie) pronounces it "half cannon," actually. Maybe the script originally meant for Goodman to say "Half cannon, half sword of justice!"--Mazryonh 23:11, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

He said "Half Cannon" for sure, I had subtitles on while I watched the movie. I assumed he said "Half Cannon" referring to the .50 caliber bullet being half an inch in diameter, hence "Half Cannon". --Yournamehere 05:45, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Someone marked it the Eagle as the .44 Magnum version, not the .50 AE. Not sure if it is myself though. -Survivalkid21

Nick's weapons choices

All in all, what is the general opinion on the guns Nick opts for. Here's what I think:

Rossi Overlander-Not a very good choice, because of the slow reload time. Although, it is shown that Nick is relatively unfamiliar with firearms, so the simplicity may have been why he chose it.

1911-Good. All-around solid gun.

Colt Python-I believe picked more for intimidation than combat use. Nick like that the gun was big and scary looking.

What do y'all think?

My real question is why he didn't go to a gun show and get some real firepower. There's plenty of firepower to be had there, without many people asking questions, like Maadi ARMs. The Overland shotgun is a bit cumbersome, optimized for hunting animals and not for shooting other people when they're filling you full of holes while you're trying to reload, so I think it was purely an aesthetic choice on the Director's part, so the viewers could see the intimidating sight of a long gun with the constant sound of Nick loading it and racking it closed. But if the gang members could get pump action shotguns, why not Nick?

The Colt M1911 is good as a backup weapon, but sometimes I wonder if it's a double-stack variant given how many times he fired without reloading during the final gunfight. For practicality reasons, maybe he should have gotten a 9x19mm firearm loaded with JHPs instead for a "last ditch weapon." I can only see FMJ bullets in the screenshots. --Mazryonh 22:43, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

You're showing your Britishness again. (1.) The Maadi ARM has not been imported to the U.S. for over 20 years, so unless you stumble upon an (over-priced) pre-89 example, you're not gonna find them, (2.) FFLs at gun shows are subject to the same regulations that apply anywhere. -MT2008 22:54, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

"You're showing your Britishness again." Yes he is. There is no gun show loophole, if you've been to one you'd know. I have been to several gun shows. It's usually about 90 to 95% dealers that are subject to paperwork. Very few individuals. Nick did not have a record and could have easily went into a gun store and bought what he needed no problem, but he needed them right then. About Nick's weapon choices I guess the double barrel was chosen because that might have been what he hunted with years before and knew how to operate. He had a hard time figuring out the 1911 and Python. He could have picked up the 870 off Baggy, but didn't because he didn't know to use it most likely. The 1911 was a single stack with the reloading cut out, like they do in most films. He is seen reloading it in the stairwell though.--Predator20 23:11, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not British, and I don't want to muck up this discussion page about gun control--there's a thread in the forums about that. But regardless of my inexperience with gun show minutiae, I think Nick could definitely have gotten a bigger variety of weaponry more suited to his vendetta at a gun show, and possibly at more competitive prices rather than just one questionable person who could command his prices (at a marketplace, if someone isn't offering you a product at the price you want, you can always go to someone else). I do suppose that the director wanted that moment of tension when Goodman's character asked Nick whether he was after Billy, though. --Mazryonh 23:23, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

You're not British? Aussie then? The "minutiae" about gun shows that you speak of is no trivial matter. I'd rather you didn't promote ignorance of American gun laws on here, especially since you've already admitted your lack of experience with real guns on our forum (whereas Predator and I actually own and shoot guns in real life, not just in video games).

Anyway, Nick most likely didn't go to a gun show because (1.) he probably didn't intend to get caught, in which case, legally-purchased firearms would have been all too easy to trace, and (2.) he might have lived in a city or state with waiting periods and/or registration, in which case, again, going to a gun show is less ideal than going to an illegal arms dealer. Bones Darley obviously had a pretty good variety of weapons in the safe (including automatics), so actually, Nick was probably better going to him, anyway. And given that he's trying to avenge his family, I highly doubt he cared about money (as evidenced by the extra cash he gave Bones). -MT2008 00:34, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I dont know about you folks, but they only have gun shows once a month were i live. I doubt he wanted to wait a month + 5 day waiting period.

A question, then: Why'd he take the DB and not, for example, the Cobray streetsweeper next to it? Edit: I think I may've figured out why he went to Bones. Simply put: He didn't know where else to go. Obviously, Nick doesn't know much about guns, so he didn't know where he could find stores/shows. In the bar, he tells the Spanish guy: "I need to buy some guns." As in, "Tell me where to find guns." He was already nearby, so he thought he'd kill two birds with one stone. (find Billy, and get some guns.)

Well let's face facts. It's safe to say that Nick knows nearly nothing about guns, his lock 'n' load sequence is proof of that. The way he's haphazardly handling his newest purchases, violating every safety rule in the book, being unfamiliar with how to properly load a gun, etc. He likely went with the simplest options he was aware of at the time rather than what the more knowledgeable of us would have selected for efficiency purposes. -Ballistics_Expert2

Revenge is the best ammunition . . .

Because according to this movie it can make a shotgun shell blow off someone's leg (partly believable if Kevin Bacon's character was using shotgun slugs instead), blow that same person five feet away (which violates the laws of physics), and let you fire a 7 or 8 shot pistol 15+(!) times without having to reload. Also, it lets you cut a van in half with your muscle car.

Sure, it's "artistic license." But still, there were other ways, less implausible ways to accomplish some of that stuff in the final gunfight in "the Office." If Nick had realistically incapacitated the van driver by crushing the door in with his own car, he could have taken the van driver's MAC-10 and could use it for some "suppression fire" while running from one side of the gang's Drug Lab to another. He could have taken Hecto's pistol and searched for any ammunition in his residence for some more suppression fire capability before resorting to his own M1911A1. Anyone have thoughts on this? --Mazryonh 23:59, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

The only logic I can think of is that Nick wasn't thinking straight. He wasn't going to pause and pickup ammo. He was so hell-bent on killing Billy .

Also, where Nick blows the man's leg off, I can understand the second shot making him fall over (since he'd be off balance.) But not blasting him through the air.

The movie is awesome, who really cares? - ZeoRanger5

I don't know but when I watch this movie I get the feeling of it being somewhat surreal in nature.

Mix and match

Did anybody notice the manuals and accessories that Bones gave Nick didn't seem to match the guns he bought? The top manual looked like it was for one of these cheap zinc model guns, like a Jennings or Bryco pistol you'd find in .380 ACP.

I noticed that too. I assumed that Bones thought that Nick wouldn't notice and/or care. -SasquatchJim.

So I finally got a copy of the movie and started watching it, and in the scene where Nick is acquiring his goods I noticed that Bones gave him four white boxes of ammo, and on the front of the box was "Full Flash 9mm". Besides not being the correct ammo for any of Nick's guns, does anybody have theories as to the significance of this? Maybe a generic stage prop because Remington and Winchester didn't want their name associated with this picture? -Ballistics_Expert2

@@ Line 18: / Line 18: @@
 *Can we have some screencaps of this? This discussion is pretty interesting to me.
 :The rollmarks on the 1991A1 Colt's are very large, on the screencaps I took I didn't see it. So I went with 1911. Most likely some off brand. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 02:57, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
+[[Image:DS-1911-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Bones sets down the M1991A1. alongside the Colt Python]]
 [[Image:DS-1911-3.jpg|thumb|none|600px|1911]]
+:That's nice, but simply saying it's a 1991 and showing a sideshot of it does not prove your point. I see no markings that indicate that it's a 1991, and the fact that it has black rubber grips does not mean that it's a 1991, as many other 1911 variants come with nearly identical grips, and besides, you can easily add different grips to almost any 1911. Therefore, I'm changing it back, and you can bitch about it if you want, but until you provide actual evidence that it's a 1991, I'll make sure it stays a 1911 on the page, as that's much more likely the case. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 14:31, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
+::Well I reverted your edits Acora, when I screencapped it I changed it from a M1991A1 to M1911A1, another user changed it back it to a 1991. After looking at M1991A1 pics more closely, I have to agree. While there is never a good clear view of the rollmarks. It resembles the 1991 series more than any of the others. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 17:23, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
+[[Image:ColtM1991A1L.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Colt M1991A1]]
+[[Image:ColtM1991A1R.jpg|thumb|none|500px|Colt M1991A1]]
+Predator, it resembles a blued 1911A1 with black grips that bear the Colt logo. That, quite honestly, could be nearly ''any'' 1911 variant, so unless we see a good shot of the rollmarks, we can't make a conclusive judgement. Seeing as other then possibly this case, I haven't seen any 1991A1's in any film whatsoever, it's much more likely a standard 1911. Besides, the rollmarks should be fairly easy to see, if they were there, and I don't see anything on our screenshots. Therefore, I'm changing it back. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 11:53, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
+::You haven't seen it listed in any in film, because most likely there haven't been any good close ups to say it was. More often than not, when we see a 1911 in film. Chances are there is never any good identifying marks of the make. So we just call it a M1911A1, when it could be a Series 70 or 80 Colt, Springfield whatever. Take [[Heaven's Prisoners]]. If there wasn't this one close up of the gun, I would have went about calling it a M1911A1 when it's actually a Colt MK IV Series 80. Which is why I added this note in the [[M1911A1]] section. :
+''Note many in the list below could actually be Colt Mark IV Series 70/80 Government Models, Springfield Armory, or another manufacturer. Instead of a former military issued M1911A1, unless its a war film. Since the markings of the gun aren't always clear, M1911A1 is a catch-all term. Being most 1911 manufacturers pistols are based off the M1911A1 platform.''
+[[Image:HP-1911-3.jpg|thumb|none|600px|Heaven's Prisoners. Note Colt MK IV Series 80 on the slide.]]
+I reverted you edits again and locked the page. The rollmarks may not ''clearly'' show Colt M1991A1 it's rollmark style says it does. While it's just a screencap, it also has the plastic looking trigger found on them also. Lastly the grips found on them (M1991A1) and some other Series 80 Colts. While they could be changed, why would they do that? I tell you one thing else it's not an actual [[M1911A1]]. --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 15:09, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
+:So, what you're saying is, if there's no actual proof that it's a certain variation of a firearm, but I think it is, I should just change it and have the page locked? Yes, that's a brilliant way to actually determine what kind of firearm it is. Point being, we cannot determine whether it's actually a 1991 or not, and therefore, it's stupid to claim that it is one. There is no concrete evidence to it being one, and while you claim the rollmark style proves that it's a 1991, I strongly disagree. I cannot even see any rollmarks on the gun, just a large patch of discoloration where almost any rollmarks could fit. But obviously, you're going to keep it as a 1991, even though you haven't proven that it is such. Fine. [[User:Acora|Acora]] 16:36, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
+::You're going to argue these shots aren't clear enough, but I'm going to post them anyway. Looks to me like it says Series 80 below the ejection port. I'm not sure of any other makers that mark their 1911s there. "No clear evidence?" The rollmark style says it is, the grips, the slightly taller sights from the GI style, flat mainspring vs the arched seen on the GI models, parkerized finish. What more do you want? --[[User:Predator20|Predator20]] 18:47, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
+[[Image:DS-1991-1.jpg|thumb|none|600px|looks like Series 80 to me.]]
+[[Image:DS-1991-1.jpg|thumb|none|600px|image brightened]]
 ==Pump shotgun help==
@@ Line 25: / Line 42: @@
 [[Image:DS-PUMP-2.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
 [[Image:DS-PUMP-3.jpg|thumb|none|600px|]]
+It's entirely possible this is a Smith & Wesson 3000 model shotgun. It's visually similar to the Remington 870 with the rounded bolt and the slide near the end of the magazine tube, but with enough differences to make it stand out.
 ==Possible misquote?==
 There is a screencapped picture of Bones holding the Desert Eagle. Underneath it says: "...half cannon." I could've sworn he said "Hand cannon." That would make more sense IMO.
 :The way John Goodman ("Fred Flintstone" in another movie) pronounces it "half cannon," actually. Maybe the script originally meant for Goodman to say "Half cannon, half sword of justice!"--[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 23:11, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
+He said "Half Cannon" for sure, I had subtitles on while I watched the movie. I assumed he said "Half Cannon" referring to the .50 caliber bullet being half an inch in diameter, hence "Half Cannon". --[[User:Yournamehere|Yournamehere]] 05:45, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
+:Someone marked it the Eagle as the .44 Magnum version, not the .50 AE. Not sure if it is myself though. -Survivalkid21
 ==Nick's weapons choices==
@@ Line 51: / Line 73: @@
 ::I'm not British, and I don't want to muck up this discussion page about gun control--there's a thread in the forums about that. But regardless of my inexperience with gun show minutiae, I think Nick could definitely have gotten a bigger variety of weaponry more suited to his vendetta at a gun show, and possibly at more competitive prices rather than just one questionable person who could command his prices (at a marketplace, if someone isn't offering you a product at the price you want, you can always go to someone else). I do suppose that the director wanted that moment of tension when Goodman's character asked Nick whether he was after Billy, though. --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 23:23, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
+:::You're not British?  Aussie then?  The "minutiae" about gun shows that you speak of is no trivial matter.  I'd rather you didn't promote ignorance of American gun laws on here, especially since you've already admitted your lack of experience with real guns on our forum (whereas Predator and I actually own and shoot guns in real life, not just in video games).
+:::Anyway, Nick most likely didn't go to a gun show because (1.) he probably didn't intend to get caught, in which case, legally-purchased firearms would have been all too easy to trace, and (2.) he might have lived in a city or state with waiting periods and/or registration, in which case, again, going to a gun show is less ideal than going to an illegal arms dealer.  Bones Darley obviously had a pretty good variety of weapons in the safe (including automatics), so actually, Nick was probably better going to him, anyway.  And given that he's trying to avenge his family, I highly doubt he cared about money (as evidenced by the extra cash he gave Bones). -[[User:MT2008|MT2008]] 00:34, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
+I dont know about you folks, but they only have gun shows once a month were i live. I doubt he wanted to wait a month + 5 day waiting period.
+A question, then: Why'd he take the DB and not, for example, the Cobray streetsweeper next to it?
+Edit: I think I may've figured out why he went to Bones. Simply put: He didn't know where else to go. Obviously, Nick doesn't know much about guns, so he didn't know where he could find stores/shows. In the bar, he tells the Spanish guy: "I need to buy some guns." As in, "Tell me where to find guns." He was already nearby, so he thought he'd kill two birds with one stone. (find Billy, and get some guns.)
+Well let's face facts. It's safe to say that Nick knows nearly nothing about guns, his lock 'n' load sequence is proof of that. The way he's haphazardly handling his newest purchases, violating every safety rule in the book, being unfamiliar with how to properly load a gun, etc. He likely went with the simplest options he was aware of at the time rather than what the more knowledgeable of us would have selected for efficiency purposes. -[[User:Ballistics_Expert2|Ballistics_Expert2]]
 == Revenge is the best ammunition . . .  ==
@@ Line 57: / Line 90: @@
 Sure, it's "artistic license." But still, there were other ways, less implausible ways to accomplish some of that stuff in the final gunfight in "the Office." If Nick had realistically incapacitated the van driver by crushing the door in with his own car, he could have taken the van driver's MAC-10 and could use it for some "suppression fire" while running from one side of the gang's Drug Lab to another. He could have taken Hecto's pistol and searched for any ammunition in his residence for some more suppression fire capability before resorting to his own M1911A1. Anyone have thoughts on this? --[[User:Mazryonh|Mazryonh]] 23:59, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
+The only logic I can think of is that Nick wasn't thinking straight. He wasn't going to pause and pickup ammo. He was so hell-bent on killing Billy .
+Also, where Nick blows the man's leg off, I can understand the second shot making him fall over (since he'd be off balance.) But not blasting him through the air.
+The movie is awesome, who really cares? - ZeoRanger5
+I don't know but when I watch this movie I get the feeling of it being somewhat surreal in nature.
+== Mix and match ==
+Did anybody notice the manuals and accessories that Bones gave Nick didn't seem to match the guns he bought? The top manual looked like it was for one of these cheap zinc model guns, like a Jennings or Bryco pistol you'd find in .380 ACP.
+I noticed that too. I assumed that Bones thought that Nick wouldn't notice and/or care. -SasquatchJim.
+So I finally got a copy of the movie and started watching it, and in the scene where Nick is acquiring his goods I noticed that Bones gave him four white boxes of ammo, and on the front of the box was "Full Flash 9mm". Besides not being the correct ammo for any of Nick's guns, does anybody have theories as to the significance of this? Maybe a generic stage prop because Remington and Winchester didn't want their name associated with this picture? -Ballistics_Expert2

Talk:Death Sentence: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 19:58, 12 December 2012

Contents

1911 or 1991?

Pump shotgun help

Possible misquote?

Nick's weapons choices

Revenge is the best ammunition . . .

Mix and match

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Talk:Death Sentence: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 19:58, 12 December 2012

1911 or 1991?

Pump shotgun help

Possible misquote?

Nick's weapons choices

Revenge is the best ammunition . . .

Mix and match

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